Curse

Vinraith · Jan 13, 2007, 04:39 PM // 16:39

It's the sensible thing for a healer under attack to be doing and finally makes crippling and slowing skills useful in PvE. Not only do I not see a problem, it's a genuine improvement as far as AI difficulty. Adapt, that's pretty much the name of the game anyway.

EatMoreCarbs · Jan 13, 2007, 04:44 PM // 16:44

I never had problems with that since on Istan. Im at Chantry of Secrets right now and the medics go down pretty easy. If they do flee, just cripple, or chase them.

Myria · Jan 13, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

What do you expect them to do? Stand there while you try to plant your axe in their face? Now *that* would be idiotic.

The AI isn't kiting, that might actually make sense, if done well it would even be impressive and would certainly add to gameplay. Instead it's running around randomly, most often away from its own team and any support, whilst I get free crits in their back. That is the very definition of idiotic and certainly does not add anything, save Benny Hill jokes, to the game.

Brother Andicus · Jan 13, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

On the topic of the thread, do not, regardless of your opinion of the other person's post, no matter if you are correct or not in your view, make attacks on the other player themself.

Ok, some people wont understand this, but seeing as you deleted some thread content i'll explain it.

In a game where 90%+ of the PvE is VERY easy, for the OP to suggest that they dumb down the already dumb AI suggests that perhaps they aren't doing something quite right.
In addition to that, there are other factors. GW is very much about skills, it doesn't have level grind, and doesn't have uber items, which means players should be thinking about what skills to use in a given situation.
On top of all the above, there are numerous internet based resources available to players to give them advice.

Seeing you didnt seem to like my first post(which wasn't actually a personal attack, more advice), i'll rephrase it to something nicer.

@OP

Please learn to play before commenting on the core mechanics. Kiting is very much a part of the game, and encourages team builds, individual player builds and player skill. To add my bit to help, here's a list(incomplete) of skills that counters your problem.

Axe Rake
Backbreaker
Bulls Charge
Bulls Strike
Charge
Charging Strike
Devastating Hammer
Enraged Charge
Hammer Bash
Hamstring
Rush
Sprint
Avatar of Balthazar
Pious Haste
Harriers Grasp
Crippling Anguish
Imagined Burden
Kitahs Burden
Ethereal Burden
Shadow Prison
Dash
Shock
Storm Djinns Haste
Windborne Speed
Gale
Ice Prison
Tenais Prison
Ice Spike
Deep Freeze
Shard Storm
Crippling Shot
Pindown

Thats quite a long list, and i'd guess there are at least as many again that I can't think of off the top of my head.

In addition to all of the above options to counter kiting, there are also ways you can neutralise the effect of NPC monks and therefore ignore them whislt dealing with other threats.

Amity and Truth · Jan 13, 2007, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Oh mercy!
I almost died laughing from all those people stating "get a speed buff to catch up with them". Clearly, you have never played the game or you would know that the AI often tends to bug into mirroring your speed and thus running away endlessly.

Snares however are an option and no sorry sir ubers left and right, the game is not really easy towards a lot of players. Casual players actually consider it to be a quite hard game and are suffocated by the myriad of skillchoices.

Myria · Jan 13, 2007, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Andicus

Please learn to play before commenting on the core mechanics.

Thinking the post-Nightfall AI's tendency to play Benny Hill moronic does not mean that one does not know how to play.

Quote:

Kiting is very much a part of the game, [...]

Frankly, anyone who thinks what the AI is doing in any reasonable way resembles kiting needs to "learn to play before commenting".

Kiting is a strategic retreat to a superior location or position, an activity that, if done well and with a little luck, can turn a losing situation into a winning one. The AI is not kiting, however, the AI is picking a random direction and running in an arc with no consideration of positioning or the location of the rest of its team. That's called a route, an activity lacking in any strategic value whatsoever and inevitably ending with one's face on the pavement.

Sekkira · Jan 13, 2007, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

I almost died laughing from all those people stating "get a speed buff to catch up with them".

I found the whole arguement that the AI is dumb because their running away erratically causes a problem for the on complaining absolutely hilarious. You can call it stupid if you want, but if it's causing problems and beating you, clearly it's effective, showing that your intelligence is worse.

Skyy High · Jan 13, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

It may not be gvg-quality kiting, but it's the damn best ANet could program those monks to do. Infusing them with high level pvp tactics would probably be a bit harder (they did manage to teach mobs how to spike though).

Alya · Jan 13, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

I am in the camp of the people who dislike the current AI quirks and find them moronic and tiresome. AI is not kiting, it's simply running in circles, and as for taking a snare or cripple, NO, I do not appreciate that the current AI system FORCES me to take a specific skill or build, thus limiting my free choices on a 8-skills bar severely.

A fresh example was two days ago, when my guildie helped me to complete Abaddon's Mouth with bonus. We were two warriors, with our heroes. It was totally ridiculous with a dryder boss. As soon as we attacked it, it started running in circles. So my guildie was chasing it to prevent it from casting, and I was pummeling other dryders. When all other dryders were dead, the boss finally stopped. Is this a reasonable behaviour? Give me a break!

kazjun · Jan 13, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Not too sure about the earlier areas, I tend to take SF sousuke and such and most die before I notice anything. But in the later areas I haven't seen this at all. The dervs and warriors run, but its towards your squishies. I can't really say I seen a word of madness kite endlessly. And in the RoT I tend to run with 5 melee (me, koss, goren, thumper margrid and devona) so I'm not too sure if its a melee versus range/caster thing.

Tufty · Jan 13, 2007, 06:42 PM // 18:42

I aint had much trouble with the AI until today. Im not bothered about kiting as if they are running they arent casting and thus they are useless to the other team members.
Today however after a 2nd wipe we noticed that our Hero ele wasnt doing anything. He would stand in the middle of the battle and die without casting at all. Every time too. The git

Christix · Jan 13, 2007, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Maybe, but what about monk henchies who attack instead of heal ?
They must be in guard and not locked as attackers

What about targetting ?
Look, you target, you die and if you follow your target, it doen't be attacked no more...Why ?

AI is made that they have to follow you so if they begin something, they must finish it before go on another target...

We learn in tutorial, we have to target to show them who target...If it becomes useless because of AI, so don't learn it !

Now, make a test...Follow this instructions and look at your henchies/heroes when you are dead, on 7, no one follows each other and do what they will...

Patrick Smit · Jan 13, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christix

Maybe, but what about monk henchies who attack instead of heal ?
They must be in guard and not locked as attackers

What about targetting ?
Look, you target, you die and if you follow your target, it doen't be attacked no more...Why ?

AI is made that they have to follow you so if they begin something, they must finish it before go on another target...

We learn in tutorial, we have to target to show them who target...If it becomes useless because of AI, so don't learn it !

Now, make a test...Follow this instructions and look at your henchies/heroes when you are dead, on 7, no one follows each other and do what they will...

I think its not that easy. First of all i think the heroes following yor called targets only works very well if they are set to aggresive. Then they will run after that specific guy to finish him off, in defensive settings they will switch to the most bothersome target in their area of "interest". So i noticed that if i run close enought to the target they will attack it, if the target however is not in their spellrange the call will be ignored, and they will attack other targets. My sf eles often target groups of enemies thereby ignoring my call. Is this bad? not really, because when they are on fire they do less damage cause of the paragon skills i have equipped on morgan.

Christix · Jan 13, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

I think its not that easy. First of all i think the heroes following yor called targets only works very well if they are set to aggresive. Then they will run after that specific guy to finish him off, in defensive settings they will switch to the most bothersome target in their area of "interest".

That's the problem...Even warriors and dervishes go to another guy, even if the previous is nearly dead

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick SMIT

...only works very well if they are set to aggresive.

Heroes can be set, henchies, not....Henchies are all set agressive...but they change they target too

Brother Andicus · Jan 13, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

It may not be gvg-quality kiting, but it's the damn best ANet could program those monks to do.

QFT.

And seeing as some people dont understand kiting;

Kiting is the art of avoiding melee characters through use of your own movement and/or positioning. In its most basic form, this is achieved by running anywhere. As players become more advanced, then they begin to use more advanced kiting and even pre-kiting.

Patrick Smit · Jan 13, 2007, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Double post by accident, due slow response from guru? Got a white screen, looking like a "disconnect"

Silver Spook · Jan 13, 2007, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alya

AI is not kiting, it's simply running in circles, and as for taking a snare or cripple, NO, I do not appreciate that the current AI system FORCES me to take a specific skill or build, thus limiting my free choices on a 8-skills bar severely.

It does not force you to take specific skill, but taking one sure does help, but if you for some reason want to keep your freedom to pick random skill then you need to have a little different tactic and some dps to deal with it.

Sorry, but I found it funny to read these who complain how AI sometimes run across map or something like that. Please dont tell you actually followed some single monk npc across map.

JYX · Jan 13, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myria

Kiting is a strategic retreat to a superior location or position, an activity that, if done well and with a little luck, can turn a losing situation into a winning one.

Are we playing the same game? When I GvG I do not wait until 50% hp or am losing to kite. Why would I? Why would I do this when I can kite from the start and get all the benefits of lowered melee pressure? What strategic position are we talking about here? If you think breaking at stand and falling back to NPCs is kiting, I think this argument is pretty much done. Or are there hidden health fountains I'm not aware of? Kiting is done at every opportunity in order to mitigate melee pressure. This is its strategic value.

Everyone runs at the same base speed.
In order to hit someone in melee, you must first stop and then hit them unlike some games where you can run and strike at the same time.
Therefore, in a straight line situation if you run from melee they will never catch you, even when they do catch you, they will need to stop and hit you.
Therefore their next strike take even longer since you'll have built some distance.

Therefore running around in circles is exactly what kiting in GW is all about. It retains most of the benefits of running away in a straight line, but it does not take you away from your team, you can stop and cast when you need to. Also due to the chase code and difference in ally/enemy collision detection, "running around in circles" will often cause the people chasing you to collide into your allies, letting you gain more ground. Does this look ridiculous? Yeah sometimes it quite obviously does. Don't try telling me it has no strategic value though. Good kiting is hard to program , and the AI will sometimes run away from their group, I don't understand why this is a problem, just turn around and wipe the group they're meant to be healing.

I also fail to understand why this particular thing in PvE is ridiculous. AI regularly casts empathy on monks, they try to blind monks, they use gale completely randomly. Why focus on this thing in particular? Why does this make them idiotic when healing minions with heal other does not? I am 100% against making PvE harder by adding more damage, bigger mobs more Hp, more armor. Fighting improving AI, more tactically aware opponents is much more rewarding than fighting creatures with improved HP. However, I do think Anet implemented this incorrectly, only the corsairs appear to kite, the "harder" endgame mobs instead stand there and take it in the face. AI should improve as the game goes on. I very much doubt that engame PvE monks kiting would raise nearly as much commotion as nub corsairs doing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Spook

It does not force you to take specific skill, but taking one sure does help, but if you for some reason want to keep your freedom to pick random skill then you need to have a little different tactic and some dps to deal with it.

Sorry, but I found it funny to read these who complain how AI sometimes run across map or something like that. Please dont tell you actually followed some single monk npc across map.

Yes, I brought no snares or run skills for myself or any heroes at any point in PvE. I am D/W and usually I take melonni who is a mirror of my own scythe build, koss as dragonslasher, minion master hero, then motivation henchman, earth henchman, the two monk henchmen. This is a build with 3 melee physical and some melee minions. I have never experienced any problem with kiting, they are not nearly as good as a human monk kiting. If kiting is seriously bothering you press tab and come back to the runner when everyone else is dead.

The mob monk builds are poor to the extent that even if you just stood and hit the the warrior closest to you, they will die. Maybe eventually we will need to bring many things to PvE, but right now, overwhelming damage and defense is all you will need to complete PvE.

Myria · Jan 13, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

You can call it stupid if you want, but if it's causing problems and beating you, clearly it's effective, showing that your intelligence is worse.

How exactly is an AI monk running in circles for five minutes whilst you play tic-tac-toe on its back with your sword beating anyone? It makes them easier to kill, not harder, a running monk isn't healing and is taking crits like mad. People dislike it because it's moronic, tedious, and it makes no bloody sense, not because it's difficult.

Maria The Princess · Jan 13, 2007, 08:05 PM // 20:05

the new AI is defenetly anoying, when they start runing, but doesnt it get boring when they stant in 1 place and wait for the AOE to sloely kill them? (like before all the nurfs)

when the upgrade happened, i was kinda pissed off (ZOFG ANOUTHER NUFT IM QUITTING!!!!111) but that was actually good! ir encouraged some new builds and new skills (err.. old skills, but nobody was ever using them) to go in the picture of PVE. heck, now i love playing water ele, and my team doesnt flame for for runing it (like before: OMFG n00b you have to bring echo-meteor shower it pwnz all skills)